Shake Up Shared Reading with Cassie Tabrizi and Maria Walther [episode 42]

Hey there. Thanks for joining us today. Today we’re delighted to share a special guest episode from our friend Cassie, who is the host of the After the Bell Podcast. We asked if we could share one of her episodes here with you on our podcast so you can get to know Cassie and her amazing show.

In today’s episode, Cassie interviews Maria Walther about how teachers can shake up their shared reading. We loved this episode, and we think you will too. Yes, it’s so good.

Cassie is amazing at finding experts in specific subject areas. And then she helps distill their expertise into practical takeaways for teachers, which you know, we love. Here’s Cassie.

Welcome to After the Bell podcast where we help elementary educators improve their classrooms and empower their teaching. My name is Cassie Tabrizi and joining me today is Maria Walther.

Maria is the author of the book Shakeup Shared Reading where she talks about how to incorporate shared reading into your classroom. And she also shares in this book 100 lesson ideas with some great picture books that you can start using right away.

During this episode, we talk about some of the benefits of shared reading, which include building oral language, increasing language and listening comprehension, and just general knowledge building, which we always want. She also share some of her current favorite picture books, which you know, I love, I’m a little obsessed with those books.

Just a quick shout out to say thank you to those who follow me on Patreon, Tiffany, Alicia, Jenny, Karen, and so many more people, I just really appreciate your support month after month, your support means I get to do what I love to do every day. And it’s pretty incredible.

If you want to become a patron, you can go to patreon.com\createabilities to sign up for as little as $1 per month, you get access to an entire archive of freebies and downloads and printables and extras that you won’t find anywhere else. And there’s so much more coming your way. Alright, let’s dive in with Maria.

Maria, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. This is a topic that I am really interested in and passionate about. And I can’t wait to dive in with you.

I’m so glad to be here. Thanks for welcoming me.

Yeah, what made you want to write a book on shared reading?

That’s a great question. So really, the book on shared reading, Shakeup Shared Reading, was the follow up to The Ramped Up Read Aloud.

And the reason I wanted to write a book on shared reading today is because you know when I started teaching 34-36 years ago now, a lot of our shared reading was done with big books, pocket charts, and that has changed over the years. And so I really wanted to explore ways to do shared reading with the picture books teachers were already using in their classroom.

So that’s really how Shakeup Shared Reading happened, and also to explore that connection between the read aloud experience and the shared reading experience. Because as we both know, time in the classroom is tight. So I was just looking for ways to to make it more efficient.

And can you tell people who might not fully understand the difference. What is the difference between reading aloud and shared reading?

The difference between reading aloud and shared reading is really the interaction with the students. So during a read aloud, the teacher is doing most of the heavy lifting. And there is always conversation going on and interaction between the students but the students are often not joining in on the actual reading of the text.

So during shared reading interaction is very collaborative. Students can see the text, they’re joining in on the text. They’re doing some investigating, trying to figure out a strategy or a skill. And then they’re also approximating as they read that text together with their peers.

So that’s really the big difference is the amount of the way that we release the responsibility to students. So teachers during read aloud teachers have most of the responsibility during shared reading that responsibility is shared, hence the title shared reading.

Right. And I’m curious as to what that looks like, because with read alouds, you know, I know I’m very familiar with the teacher has the book, they’re stopping at certain points and they’re pointing things out. And they’re asking questions, and they’re trying to make it interactive and get the kids to talk to each other or answer questions.

But what does a shared reading experience look like? Can you give me just like a brief example.

So today, in today’s classrooms, what a shared reading experience looks like, and this is my definition, so a short burst of shared reading, would look like this. After the read aloud experience, and not immediately after, because the attention span isn’t there, but later in the day, or at some other point, this teacher would go back to a few key pages in that picture book and project those pages.

And as they were, as the students were looking at those pages, investigate them in some way. So let’s say for example, they projected some key pages that had rhyming words, then we can talk together about rhyming words, why did those words rhyme? Are the spelling patterns the same or different? Let’s reread these pages and hear how they sound.

So really being very specific with the goal, or the strategy that you’re working on in a short burst, so a short piece of text.

So a teacher could take a book, like you share one, A Normal Pig, the picture book, A Normal Pig, they could do like an interactive read aloud earlier in the day, and then come back to it, focus on one or two pages, or just a short piece of it, and that would make it more of the shared reading experience, is that correct?

And the fact that the kids are going to reread. So there’s always that constant rereading, because the goal of shared reading is to build fluency, one of the many goals but you so you want kids engaged in that text and reading and rereading and hearing that fluent reading the way that that sounds.

So it’s kind of like it’s basically doing a close read on the text, right? Maybe just a little bit more interactive.

And I think the difference between maybe, yes, I guess you could call it a close read. But the difference between that and shared reading, in my mind, is the type of texts that you would pick for that.

So all of the texts for shared reading are very repetitive, or the pages that you might pick, have a catchy part that students can repeat. So you really want to be purposeful in your text selection, for shared reading. And that’s really what I tried to do in the book is look at those texts, where they were a great read aloud experience. But when you wanted to focus on a specific skill or strategy, that text works very well.

Okay. And you mentioned, one of the goals of shared reading, what are some of the benefits of doing it in this way?

Well, I think the biggest benefit, and I think what we’ve seen in these last two years of teaching during a pandemic, is that we have seen in classrooms that students really need a lot of oral language development, right.

And we know that oral language development is that foundation where all the other literacies that so when you’re engaged in a shared reading interaction, you are building student’s oral language by, you know, introducing them to lots of new words and phrases, and, and very similar to the read aloud, but it’s just more intensive. And it gives students more opportunities to say the words.

During a read aloud, yes, they might turn and talk and have a little discussion, but during shared reading, they’re reading those words. So you’re really expanding their oral language development.

And the other benefit is that it makes that bridge, you know, when we teach in a gradual release classroom, we start with read aloud, we bridge into shared and then we go right into small group. So that shared reading is really that bridge between that whole group and those small group interactions.

And as you said earlier, with close reading, you know, close reading is effective when it’s purposeful and kids know why. Right? And so shared reading is the same. We want kids rereading for a specific reason. And they know that reason.

So you state that at the beginning, you know, today we’re going to go and we’re going to investigate these rhyming words. Let’s see if we can find words that rhyme and words that don’t.

Yeah, and I think it’s important, well really for every lesson, kids should know exactly why and what the focus is. But it is, it’s critical in situations like this to keep kids focused and to show them, hey, there’s an actual reason.

And if we can talk about it beforehand, they’re going to be have their brains turned on and looking forward and already more engaged than they would be otherwise, if we didn’t do that piece of it.

True. And the other part of that is, what your end goal and anytime you’re guiding the reader, whether it’s an read aloud and shared and small group, or whether you’re conferring, is so that they can do it independently. Right.

And so if they have that, you know, today I’m learning how to look for a small word and a big word, so that when I go out, and I’m reading, I can look for smell words and big words. Right? So I think it’s that by stating your intention or your learning target at the beginning, you’re also helping kids to internalize that when they do it on their own.

And that brings up some questions about what should the focus be with shared reading? Because you’ve mentioned rhyming words, I know we could do vocabulary. In the book, you talk about, you know, phonics, phonemic awareness skills as well.

Is this, are those the only things you really want to focus on? Because that sounds also like it’s for primary grades. Is this something, are there more skills? Is this something that could be for upper grades as well?

Yes, so you definitely can work on the foundational skills during shared reading all the ones that you’ve mentioned. But you can also go in to really dig into comprehension, to talk about, you know, inferring the characters feelings, using dialogue and using their actions.

You can go back in and do a shared reading from a writer’s point of view, studying the craft that that writer used. And in that way, certainly, this is something that could be done in the middle grades, or even in middle school.

You can go back in and investigate. Like when you mentioned vocabulary, well, vocabulary development is key across the grade levels. And when you’re focused on vocabulary, you’re really trying to help students to use those strategies. And, you know, to teach them what, again, how to figure out a word on their own when they’re reading on their own.

So I see this as something that could go across the grades. I mean, the reason both ramped up and in shakeup have that pre k – 3, label is because I’ve spent my life in first grade. So all of the samples and ideas come from first grade, but lots and lots of teachers, as you know, read aloud and do shared reading in the middle grades.

The thing that changes is the response. Like the students response in a middle grade classroom will look different, they can still be responding to the same question. But their actual written response or you know, products that they create will be different.

Yeah. And I, because I taught third, and I love picture books, and I loved using them. And recently, as I’ve been reading, and we hear more about oh, the science of reading, and you know, all of that different stuff. I feel like I now no longer know where picture books, and interactive read alouds and shared reading have a place.

Because I was reading a book on comprehension by Dr. Fisher, Dr. Frey. And I think there might have been another author, which I apologize, I can’t remember who it was now. And they talk about not using interactive read alouds to create what they called fossilized skill instruction.

Which because how I was taught to use it and how I use picture books was okay, we’re gonna talk about inferring. And we’re gonna read this picture book this day, and another one this day, and it’s a completely separate one, you know, the third day, and then next week, we’re gonna move on to point of view and then next week asking or whatever, you know.

And so then I’m doing all of this reading, and I’m like, wait, okay, that was just fossilized skill instruction where they can’t really connect it because we’re talking about it in the context of one book that’s not related to another book that’s not related to the larger topics that we’re teaching.

And now I feel like I don’t know how to incorporate picture books into the school day without this like guilty voice in the back of my head. If this isn’t right, you shouldn’t be doing it this way. You’re wasting time.

Well, I think I mean, you asked a lot, got a lot of layers to that question.

Stresses me out because I love them. But like, I feel like I’ve done it wrong. And now I don’t know how to do it unless they’re all tied into whatever unit you know, we might be talking about.

Right. Well, okay, so let’s unpeel some of the layers. First of all, I do believe that I’ll help you unpack that a little bit in my mind.

First of all, I think there’s no one right way to teach children. We are certainly learning a lot from science. But when we’re in front of a group of children, we also have to read the room, we have to know what they need, right? We have to do what’s best for students.

So when we think about where read aloud, and shared reading fits in the science of reading umbrella, to me, it’s language comprehension. That’s where the read aloud piece sits. So then if your focus is on language comprehension, and your will broaden that out to bigger comprehension a minute, so we have language comprehension. And we also have listening comprehension, obviously, which is a huge base, but they’re their reading comprehension sets, and also knowledge building.

So I understand what you’re saying about fossilised strategy instruction. I think, when we are reading aloud to students, we naturally and hopefully, that’s the work that I’ve done and shake up is integrate a lot of strategies and questions that prompt students to use a lot of different comprehension strategies during an interactive read aloud.

So I think, just as you did, I, oftentimes will read and I’m asked very frequently, can you give me a great book for predicting, what’s a wonderful book for inferring? And I guess in my mind, if that’s one little piece of what you’re doing to help them be a better comprehender, I don’t know that you’re doing anything necessarily wrong.

But you want to follow up that read aloud with lots of practice in real books, right? So again, it goes to that guiding readers across the day. Yes, read allows just this one piece, where you might introduce the strategy. But then when you sit down next to a reader, and you confer with them, you can refer back to Oh, remember, when we were doing, you know, we’re talking about inferring, that’s exactly what you’re doing right here in this book.

So it’s the teacher’s job to make to un-fossilize that right, to make the connections and help kids see all those connections.

Yeah, well, and I like the idea of looking at it as language comprehension and listening comprehension. Because those are critical, especially like you mentioned now with oral language development, too. And it’s something that it’s easy to forget, because you think, Oh, we’re talking throughout the day, and we’re going over things, and I have a vocabulary wall.

But read alouds and shared reading are a good way to practice that language comprehension and like, have a laser focus on it in a way.

Do you think that the picture books that you choose for these things should be tied into your larger units? So say you’re teaching something on I don’t know, the Revolutionary War? I know, that’s not first grade, but that’s first thing that came into my head. Would you pick historical fiction picture books or something with similar themes to do your interactive read alouds and shared reading?

Yes because as we said at the beginning, right, there isn’t much time, right? So you don’t, you don’t really have time to read aloud all of these books and teach that overarching, big idea. So I always taught in a curriculum that we had an overarching big idea, and then all of the read alouds and all the learning experiences, said that big idea.

So yes, and you know, in Shakeup Shared Reading, I mean, they’re the four chapters really are community, what you would do at the beginning of the year, then we have fiction, nonfiction and writing, because those can go into any big idea.

But yes, I think that the more you can tie for students, that they can see the thread running through your entire day, from your overarching big idea, to your learning intentions, and then into the learning experiences that you provide, that helps learning makes sense for students.

So to answer your question, yes, I would look for books with similar themes. And, you know, earlier when you said, you know, reading one book on one day and one book on the next day, another book, text sets are also a wonderful way to provide children with a lot of different views.

And especially multi genre texts as their multimodal texts that so a video clip, you know, and all of that, you know, you could kind of call that shared reading too, you know, let’s view this video and have a conversation about it.

Yeah, that’s true. And I think I just get so worried about doing the wrong thing that I put myself in a box a little bit. It’s like yeah, you know what, a video clip could be part of a text set, and could be part of a shared reading experience and all working together to accomplish our overall goal for the day, the week, the unit, the whatever it is.

When we go at look at engagement, right, right now, I think, you know, we’ve learned again, over the last few years how important engagement was, I was just my daughter teaches seventh grade. And they were doing ODEs. And she showed a video clip of spoken word poet reading her Rat Ode Elizabeth Acevedo.

Now, if she had just handed out the Rat Ode, and you know, piece of paper with the Rat Ode on it, and the students read it, it would have been a completely different learning experience than watching the poet perform it. Right. And so I think we have that advantage now, of so many authors reading their work, you know, online that we can access, and I think that just makes the experience richer for kids.

Yeah, it does. And thinking back from where I started with an overhead projector and transparencies to now, YouTube and all of these resources and Kahoot. You know, it’s just we have a lot of things that we can pull from.

So you mentioned that there could also be nonfiction, because to me, when I think nonfiction, I think, Oh, you’re reading it either to share information or to look at nonfiction text features. How can teachers use a nonfiction piece for shared reading effectively, that goes beyond just oh, look, let’s look for bolded words and let’s look for captions and all of that.

Well, I think, when we just kind of the umbrella over that is, it is challenging, especially for primary grades, to pick effective nonfiction texts for both read aloud and shared reading. So text selection is key. And when I’m thinking of text selection, for shared reading, for a nonfiction text, there’s two categories.

One would be very engaging, light on the amount of text, or perhaps a multi level text. So they would have a like, I don’t know, have books here, but the Big Book by Robin Page, so in Robin Page’s, Big Book, she has one level of text that is very simple, the weakest for straightening the biggest four and it goes that way. But then she has another paragraph with additional facts.

So books like that are helpful because you can go back in during shared reading and really focus on the simpler sentence. And perhaps talk about, you know, in this book, all the ways that they use beaks, let’s look at all those different words. That’s one type of text that I would look for.

The other type of text for shared reading is a book, like many of the ones by Steve Jenkins, the late Steve Jenkins, where you could really focus on just one page at a time. So he has many, many books, you know, Apex Predators, where each page is about a different predator. And you can shoot do a shared reading on just one short piece of text, rather than the whole book.

And what I love about nonfiction for shared reading is that it really leads to inquiry. You know, after you read a book about beaks, or apex predators, or, you know, whatever it might be, then students are curious and want to go out and do their own research. And that can take them in so many different directions.

So putting that invitation out there, after perhaps you haven’t finished the whole book, you just use it a page or two, then putting the book in the center or somewhere for the kids to access and say, Okay, now have at it. What else can you find out?

Yeah, and I’ve found in my experience in nonfiction books, not always, but a lot of the time tend to have the most engagement, because it’s kids are naturally curious. And they like to learn and they like to learn about the world around them to help them make sense of it.

And there’s a lot of engagement, a lot of enthusiasm with a nonfiction book, because they feel like oh, the I’m learning something, this is real. This is what scientists do, or this is about animals, or, you know, and it just amps up their level of motivation engagement.

I would thoroughly agree. And so it’s just a, you know, especially for me with a younger audience of readers, just trying to find those highly engaging books that perhaps don’t have either have level talks or don’t have level, but different types of texts, or not a lot of words.

Yeah. Gail Gibbons is another one I like to use in third grade a lot. Hers are a little bit more wordy, but you can focus on just a few pages.

Right. And then when you were saying, you know, what would you do? You know, what would you focus on for shared reading other than text features? Well, there’s just so much that you can explore.

I like to explore nonfiction really, from that writers perspective too. How did this writer make the text engaging? What did this writer do? How could you do this in your writing? So I think you can approach it from that standpoint, too, when you’re reading nonfiction.

Yeah, absolutely. What are some, we’ve talked a little bit about nonfiction, so what are things you should look for in fiction books that would make them a good fit for a shared reading or your read aloud piece?

You know, and I’m looking for books, I’m really thinking about books that kids are going to engage with. So there’s a lot of, as you well know, lots of picture books out there, lots of well reviewed picture books. But kids are savvy, you know, they there are books they like, and books they don’t.

So really judging a lot of times by the engagement of the students. And I know that’s hard to do when you’re going to the local bookstore, or you’re going to the library and you’re trying to pick but when you’ve been teaching a long time you think you have a good eye for that, knowing whether kids are going to enjoy this book or not.

So I’m thinking about that. I’m also thinking about the way that kids will react, you know, is there a surprise ending? Are there surprises along the way? Will they react in a certain way to this book, you know, what’s the reaction going to be? Thinking about books that kids will naturally want to reread. You know, as you said, nonfiction, certainly after you finish that book and put it in the classroom library that kids are fighting over. Right.

And then, for me, I’m always looking for unique books, books that I haven’t seen, you know, before, but the author, the one that always comes to mind, my, like, biggest example of a unique book was been around a long time is Duck Rabbit, by Amy Krouse Rosenthal, and Tom.

Like until that book, no one had really done that, you know, looked at this image and had kids look at it in different ways. So I’m thinking about the uniqueness, just something that’s a little bit different.

Yeah, that’s a good one to talk about. I love using that one to talk about perspective and point of view even then, it’s a great one.

Yeah, that’s great. But you know, it’s so unique, right? And that just the fact, on the back, he makes the zebra into or the barcode into a zebra, you know, and just fun. I mean, anything like that, that kids will notice. That’s what I’m looking for.

Yeah, I remember the First Day Jitters. I mean, that one’s become a little bit more prolific. But when I first started, and the kids had never read it now, I think they’ve probably all read it, but, and they were so shocked at the end when it was the teacher and not a student.

And it’s like, what, because before in, you can kind of see they’re like, Okay, I know where this is going. I get this story. I’ve heard this before. And then it’s like, oh, okay, that’s different. Yeah, exactly. And that’s always fun.

You’re right. And I read a lot of picture books as you do. And, you know, so a rare one that makes you say, Oh, my goodness, this is hysterical. A great ending, you know, I didn’t see that coming.

Yeah. And it’s hard for me because I, I shop like online on Amazon, or whatever, for picture books. And a lot of them will come, you can’t see every page. And so they’ll just have a ton of rating. So I’ll be like, Oh, that looks cute. That were that would be good for this.

And then I’ll buy it. And I’m like, oh, you know, that’s not It’s not rich enough text or there’s not enough meat in there. Or, you know, and so it’s helpful. I have to like, force myself to go to Barnes and Noble or a local bookshop, or even the library and look through it.

Because otherwise I get caught up in Oh, this has a lot of reviews, this must be good. Or they say teachers pick at the top and then I buy it. I’m like, I not this teacher. I wouldn’t pick that one.

I think yeah, that’s I mean, I check out lots from library too just to look at them first. And see, like you said, you have to read it. And then you have to really sometimes you have to read it to kids, too. And that changes every year. Yeah, one year the kids love the book, and they can’t get enough of it the next year you read it and it’s a flop. I mean, that’s their personalities. But it takes time to curate book collections.

Yeah, it does. And you’re right, it does change from year to year and a book that you love and you think, oh, every kid is gonna love this and you read it and then that’s kind of like womp womp guys come on. It’s such a good one. What are you doing?

Yeah, yeah, but yeah, they have finicky personalities sometimes.

It’s true. Well, what are some of your favorite books that you’d like to use for shared reading? Just any genre.

I tell you my right now favorites. Yeah. I’m so you can’t see you can’t see in my office but I’m surrounded by books here. So I’ll show you some of the books I’ve been talking about the most with teachers for shared reading.

This one is called, I don’t know if you’ve seen this one, Everybody in the Red Brick Building So it’s by Anne Winter. It’s her debut picture book and then it’s illustrated by the very talented Maura.

And it’s about a red brick building, but everyone is sleeping in the red brick building until a baby wakes up. And after that, everyone starts waking up until you get this wonderful two page spread, where you have all the sounds of the building. And kids love onomatopoeia, as you know, they love to join in.

So this is perfect for shared reading because it’s cumulative, each sound builds on the next, and then it ends with all of the quiet sounds. And the baby going to sleep finally. And it reminds me when I’ve shared it with teachers, I always give them the quiz. It reminds me of this old book called The Napping House by Adrienne Donwood. So I always say it’s great book for pajama day too.

So I love that because it’s cumulative, which is something I look forward to and shared reading books. It has the noisy words onomatopoeia they love that and could go back and look at that. And it it’s just a lot of fun and you know kids will join in.

Then a new one that I just got is called the Donut. This is by Laura Gal. And I’m not sure how to say Andrea’s last name, but it is about a unicorn which you know is going to be a surefire hit in every classroom. But why would choose it for shared reading is it just has these two words sentences that that rhyme.

So as donut is trying to learn how to fly, you know, Donut falls, so he whale or that whales I’m not sure if it’s here she donut sails, Donut flails, so great for going back in and looking at those rhyming words. And also talking about persistence, growth mindset, trying again.

In the end donut is able to fly with the help of donuts, friends, so that’s fun. Also great to project because just a short amount of text that kids can repeat and reread.

And then this is a new series. I don’t know if you’ve seen these by Juana Medina. I Am a book this one’s I Am and then there’s also I Will, I Am just came out. And it’s all of the different things that kids can do. So I am funny, I am smart.

And I can see this leading to great innovation where kids write about their identities, what they are, yeah, like a biography, or something. Yeah, yeah, it’s, it’s a great little series. I Will be the first book is a book of promises. So you could use that at the beginning of the year, as students are making their shared agreements.

And then, in the unique category, the most unique book I’ve read lately is this book, by remember how to say, Margot McGink is how you say her name. People Are Wild.

Oh, I’ve seen that one.

Have you seen it? Oh, my gosh, it’s hilarious. Because what it is, is the animals are looking at the people. And the mother is telling the animal why it cannot go near the person that says that’s a person. Because people are wild. They’re so loud, they’re so messy. And just it’s it’s really fun.

And I haven’t you know, I haven’t seen that before that goes back to Duck Rabbit that change and point of view. So it’s told from the point of view of the animals, about people, right, and just great for an animal unit. But again, just short pieces of text in there that kids could reread and go back into.

Nice, those are all good ones, and I wrote them down. So thank you for sharing. And I don’t want to take too much more of your time. But I have one last question for you. For teachers who are not yet really incorporating shared reading into their classrooms, how could they get started?

Well, I think the easiest way to get started is just think about what your learners need to practice. So based on your formative assessments, what you’ve noticed from kid watching and sitting next to readers, you know, what is it that as a general group your kids need to practice. You can also do shared reading in the small group if you want it. So that’s part one.

Step two is just pick a text that will engage them something that will help you to focus on that skill or strategy. And then when I’m framing that learning intention, or that learning target, I’m always trying to frame that as a mystery.

So today, we’re going to go back into this book and try to figure out, you know why these words rhyme or today, we’re going to go back into this book and look at the characters faces to try to infer how they’re feeling, whatever it is.

And then in shared reading, you want to do our my turn, our turn, your turn. So demonstrate something based on your learning intention, try it out as a group, practice as a group, and then let kids go ahead and practice on their own. And you can do that on different pages in the book or in different parts of the book. But just having them have that time for you to demonstrate kids to go ahead and try it on their own.

And then I like to end with that, you know, invitation to innovate, like, what could you create, based on what you’ve learned in this book? So go create something.

Yeah, I like that piece of it, too. Well, thank you so much for all of your time and your insights. If anyone out there is really wanting to start shared reading, I can’t recommend Shakeup Shared Reading enough.

There are oh, I don’t know what at least 100 lesson plans or lesson ideas in here that walk you through it. So you don’t have to recreate the wheel. And that’s very, very helpful. So I appreciate you putting this together and making it easier for people who want to get started with it.

Well, thanks, Cassie. And thanks so, so much for having me today. It was a pleasure. Pleasure chatting.

Yes, it was Thank you. It’s nice to talk to someone who is as obsessed with picture books as I am. Because sometimes I feel alone in that it’s a little crazy. I need to tone it down a little bit, but I can’t help it.

It’s also helpful for me to remember that there still is a place for picture books and an important place actually and that I can still incorporate them into my lessons without feeling like I’m doing something wrong or wasting time. So this was a really helpful episode for me and hopefully it was helpful for you.